Talk 38
4th February, 1935
Talk 38.
When one of the present attendants came the first time to Bhagavan, he asked: "What is the way for liberation?" Maharshi replied: "The way already taken leads to liberation."
Talk 37 Talk 39
Talk 37
4th February, 1935
Talk 37.
"What is Karma?" asked someone.
Maharshi: That which has already begun to bear fruit is classified as prarabdha [?] Karma (past action). That which is in store and will later bear fruit is classified as sanchita Karma (accumulated action). This is multifarious like the grain obtained by villagers as barter for cress (greens). Such bartered grain consists of rice, ragi, barley, etc., some floating on, others sinking in water. Some of it may be good, bad or indifferent. When the most potent of the multifarious accumulated karma begins to bear fruit in the next birth it is called the prarabdha of that birth.
Talk 36 Talk 38
Talk 36
4th February, 1935
Talk 36.
An aristocratic and distinguished lady visitor from the North accompanied by her Private Secretary arrived at noon, waited a few minutes and asked Maharshi soon after he returned to the hall after lunch:
D.: Maharajji, can we see the dead?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: Can the yogis show them to us?
Maharshi: Yes. They may. But do not ask me to show them to you. For I cannot.
D.: Do you see them?
Maharshi: Yes, in dreams.
D.: Can we realise the goal through yoga?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: Have you written on yoga? Are there books on the subject by you?
Maharshi: Yes.
After she left the Master observed: "Did we know our relatives before their birth that we should know them after their death?"
Talk 35 Talk 37
Talk 34
4th February, 1935
YOGI RAMIAH'S ACCOUNT OF HIS EXPERIENCES
Sitting in Maharshi's presence brings peace of mind. I used to sit in samadhi for three or four hours together. Then I felt my mind took a form and came out from within. By constant practice and meditation it entered the Heart and was merged into it. I conclude that the Heart is the resting place of mind. The result is peace. When the mind is absorbed in the Heart, the Self is realised. This could be felt even at the stage of concentration (dharana [?]).
I asked Maharshi about contemplation. He taught me as follows:- When a man dies the funeral pyre is prepared and the body is laid flat on the pyre. The pyre is lit. The skin is burnt, then the flesh and then the bones until the whole body falls to ashes. What remains thereafter? The mind. The question arises, `How many are there in this body - one or two?' If two, why do people say `I' and not `we'? There is therefore only one. Whence is it born? What is its nature (swaroopa)? Enquiring thus the mind also disappears. Then what remains over is seen to be `I'. The next question is `Who am I??' The Self alone. This is contemplation. It is how I did it. By this process attachment to the body (dehavasana [?]) is destroyed. The ego vanishes. Self alone shines. One method of getting mind-dissolution (manolaya [?]) is association with great ones - the yoga adepts (Yoga arudhas). They are perfect adepts in samadhi. Self-Realisation has been easy, natural, and perpetual to them. Those moving with them closely and in sympathetic contact gradually absorb the samadhi habit from them.
Talk 33 Talk 35
Talk 33
4th February, 1935
Talk 33.
A visitor: "The Supreme Spirit (Brahman) is Real. The world (jagat [?]) is illusion," is the stock phrase of Sri Sankaracharya. Yet others say, "The world is reality". Which is true?
Maharshi: Both statements are true. They refer to different stages of development and are spoken from different points of view. The aspirant (abhyasi [?]) starts with the definition, that which is real exists always; then he eliminates the world as unreal because it is changing. It cannot be real; `not this, not this!' The seeker ultimately reaches the Self and there finds unity as the prevailing note. Then, that which was originally rejected as being unreal is found to be a part of the unity. Being absorbed in the Reality, the world also is Real. There is only being in Self-Realisation, and nothing but being. Again Reality is used in a different sense and is applied loosely by some thinkers to objects. They say that the reflected (adhyasika [?]) Reality admits of degrees which are named:
(1) Vyavaharika satya (everyday life) - this chair is seen by me and is real.
(2) Pratibhasika satya (illusory) - Illusion of a serpent in a coiled rope. The appearance is real to the man who thinks so. This phenomenon appears at a point of time and under certain circumstances.
(3) Paramartika satya (ultimate) - Reality is that which remains the same always and without change.
If Reality be used in the wider sense the world may be said to have the everyday life and illusory degrees (vyavaharika and pratibhasika satya). Some, however, deny even the reality of practical life - vyavaharika satya and consider it to be only projection of the mind. According to them it is only pratibhasika satya [?], i.e., an illusion.
Talk 32 Talk 34
Talk 32
4th February, 1935
Talk 32.
A visitor: The saints Sri Chaitanya and Sri Ramakrishna wept before God and achieved success. Is that not the path to follow?
Maharshi: Yes. There was a powerful force (sakti [?]) drawing them on through all those experiences. Trust in that huge power to take you on to your goal. Tears are often considered a sign of weakness. These great persons were certainly not weak. These manifestations are only passing signs of the great current carrying them on. We must look to the end achieved.
D.: Can this physical body be made to disappear into nothingness?
Maharshi: Why this question? Can you not find out if you are the body?
D.: Can we have disappearance from sight (antardhana [?]) like the yogis Vasishta or Viswamitra?
Maharshi: These are only physical matters. Is that the essential object of our interest? Are you not the Self? Why trouble about other matters? Take the essence; reject other learned theories as useless. They who think that physical disappearance counts in freedom are mistaken. No such thing is needed.
You are not the body; what does it matter if it disappears in one way or another? There is no great merit in such phenomena. In what does superiority or inferiority consist? Achievement of the Real alone matters. The loss of the `I' is the main fact, and not the loss of the body. Identity of the Self with the body is the real bondage. Leave off the false notion and perceive intuitively the Real. That alone matters. If you melt a gold ornament before testing it to be gold, what matters it how it is melted, whole or in parts, or of what shape the ornament was? All that you are interested in is if it is gold. The dead man sees not his body. It is the survivor that thinks about the manner in which the body is parted from. The realised have no death with or without the body, the realised man is equally aware and sees no difference. To him the one state is not superior to the other. To an outsider also the fortunes of a liberated one's body need not be of any concern; mind your business.
Realise the Self; after realisation there will be time to think of what form of death is preferable to you. It is the false identity of the Self with the body that causes the idea of preference, etc. Are you the body? Were you aware of it when you were fast asleep last night? No! What is it that exists now and troubles you? It is `I'. Get rid of it and be happy.
Talk 31 Talk 33
Talk 31
4th February, 1935
Mukti, Renunciation
A visitor asked: What to do to get liberation (moksha [?])?
Maharshi: Learn what liberation is.
D.: Should I do worship (upasana [?]) for it?
Maharshi: Worship is for mind control (chitta nirodha) and concentration.
D.: Should I do idol worship? Is there any harm in it?
Maharshi: So long as you think you are the body there is no harm.
D.: How to get over the cycle of births and deaths?
Maharshi: Learn what it means.
D.: Should I not leave my wife and family?
Maharshi: How do they harm you? First find out who you are.
D.: Should not one give up wife, wealth, home?
Maharshi: Learn first what samsara [?] is. Is all that samsara? Have there not been men living among them and getting realisation?
D.: What are the steps of practical training (sadhana [?]) for it?
Maharshi: It depends on the qualifications and the nature of the seeker.
D.: I am doing idol worship.
Maharshi: Go on with it. It leads to concentration of mind. Get one-pointed.
All will come out right. People think that freedom (moksha) is somewhere yonder and should be sought out. They are wrong. Freedom (moksha) is only knowing the Self within yourself. Concentrate and you will get it. Your mind is the cycle of births and deaths (samsara).
D.: My mind is very unsteady. What should I do?
Maharshi: Fix your attention on any single thing and try to hold on to it.
All will be right.
D.: I find concentration difficult.
Maharshi: Go on practising. Your concentration will be as easy as breathing. That will be the crown of your achievements.
D.: Are not abstinence and pure food helpful?
Maharshi: Yes, all that is good. (Then Maharshi concentrates and silently gazes at vacancy, and thus sets an example to the questioner).
D.: Do I not require Yoga?
Maharshi: What is it but the means to concentration?
D.: To help concentration, is it not good to have some aids?
Maharshi: Breath-regulation, etc., are such helps.
D.: Is it not possible to get a vision of God?
Maharshi: Yes. You see this and that. Why not see God? Only you must know what God is. All are seeing God always. But they do not know it. You find out what God is. People see, yet see not, because they know not God.
D.: Should I not go on with repetition of sacred syllables, (mantra [?]
japa [?]), e.g., Krishna or Rama's name, when I worship images?
Maharshi: Mental japa is very good. That helps meditation. Mind gets identified with the repetition and then you get to know what worship (puja [?]) really is - the losing of one's individuality in that which is worshipped.
D.: Is the Universal Soul (Paramatma) always different from us?
Maharshi: That is the common belief, but it is wrong. Think of Him as not different from you, and then you achieve identity of Self with God.
D.: Is it not the Advaita [?] doctrine to become one with God?
Maharshi: Where is becoming? The thinker is all the while the Real. He ultimately realises the fact. Sometimes we forget our identities, as in sleep and dreams. But God is perpetual consciousness.
D.: Is not the Master's guidance necessary, besides idol worship?
Maharshi: How did you start it without advice?
D.: From sacred books (puranas).
Maharshi: Yes. Someone tells you of God, or Bhagavan Himself tells you.
In the latter case God Himself is your Master. What matters it who the Master is? We really are one with Master or Bhagavan. The Master is God; one discovers it in the end. There is no difference between human-guru and God-guru.
D.: If we have done virtuous action (punya [?]) the achievement will not leave us. I hope.
Maharshi: You will reap your destiny (prarabdha [?]) that way.
D.: Will not a Wise Master be a great help in pointing out the way?
Maharshi: Yes. If you go on working with the light available, you will meet your Master, as he himself will be seeking you.
D.: Is there a difference between prapatti [?] (self-surrender) and the Path of Yoga of the Seers?
Maharshi: Jnana Marga [?] and Bhakti Marga [?] (prapati) are one and the same.
Self-surrender leads to realisation just as enquiry does. Complete self-surrender means that you have no further thought of `I'. Then all your predispositions (samskaras) are washed off and you are free. You should not continue as a separate entity at the end of either course.
D.: Do not we go to Heaven (svarga [?]), etc. as the result of our actions?
Maharshi: That is as true as the present existence. But if we enquire who we are and discover the Self, what need is there to think of heaven, etc.?
D.: Should I not try to escape rebirth?
Maharshi: Yes. Find out who is born and who has the trouble of existence now. When you are asleep do you think of rebirths or even the present existence, etc.? So find out whence the present problem arises and there is the solution also. You will discover that there is no birth, no present trouble or unhappiness, etc. All is That; All is Bliss; we are freed from rebirth in fact. Why fret over the misery of rebirth?
Talk 30 Talk 32
Talk 30
4th February, 1935
Talk 30.
Mr. N. Natesa Iyer, the leader of the Bar in a South Indian town, an orthodox Brahmin, asked: "Are the gods Iswara or Vishnu and their sacred regions Kailasa or Vaikuntha [?] real?
Maharshi: As real as you are in this body.
D.: Do they possess a vyavahara satya, i.e., phenomenal existence , like my body? Or are they fictions like the horn of a hare?
Maharshi: They do exist.
D.: If so, they must be somewhere. Where are they?
Maharshi: Persons who have seen them say that they exist somewhere. So we must accept their statement.
D.: Where do they exist?
Maharshi: In you.
D.: Then it is only idea - that which I can create and control?
Maharshi: Everything is like that.
D.: But I can create pure fictions e.g., hare's horn or only part truths, e.g. mirage, while there are also facts irrespective of my imagination. Do the gods Iswara or Vishnu exist like that?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: Is He subject to pralaya [?] (cosmic dissolution)?
Maharshi: Why? Man becoming aware of the Self transcends cosmic dissolution (pralaya) and becomes liberated (mukta [?]). Why not God (Iswara) who is infinitely wiser and abler?
Page 35D.: Do devas [?] and pisachas [?] (devils) exist similarly?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: How are we to conceive of Supreme Consciousness (Chaitanya [?]
Brahman [?])?
Maharshi: As that which is.
D.: Should it be thought of as Self-Effulgent?
Maharshi: It transcends light and darkness. An individual (jiva [?]) sees both.
The Self enlightens the individual to see light and darkness.
D.: Should it be realised as "I am not the body, nor the agent, nor the enjoyer, etc."?
Maharshi: Why these thoughts? Do we now think that we are men, etc.? By not thinking so, do we cease to be men?
D.: Should one realise it then by the scriptural text such as "There are no differences here".
Maharshi: Why even that?
D.: If we think "I am the real," will it do?
Maharshi: All thoughts are inconsistent with realisation. The correct state is to exclude thoughts of ourselves and all other thoughts. Thought is one thing and realisation is quite another.
D.: Is it not necessary or at least advantageous to render the body invisible in one's spiritual progress?
Maharshi: Why do you think of that? Are you the body?
D.: No. But advanced spirituality must effect a change in the body. Is it not so?
Maharshi: What change do you desire in the body, and why?
D.: Is not invisibility evidence of advanced Wisdom (jnana)?
Maharshi: In that case, all those who spoke, who wrote and who passed their lives in the sight of others must be considered ignorant (ajnanis)!
D.: But the sages Vasistha and Valmiki possessed such powers?
Maharshi: It might have been their fate (prarabdha [?]) to develop such powers (siddhis) side by side with their wisdom (jnana). Why should you aim at that which is not essential but apt to prove a hindrance to wisdom (jnana)? Does the Sage (Jnani [?]) feel oppressed by his body being visible?
D.: No.
Maharshi: A hypnotist can render himself suddenly invisible. Is he therefore a Sage (Jnani)?
D.: No.
Maharshi: Visibility and invisibility refer to a seer. Who is that seer? Solve that first. Other matters are unimportant.
D.: The Vedas contain conflicting accounts of Cosmogony. Ether is said to be the first creation in one place; vital energy (prana [?]) in another place; something else in yet another; water in still another, and so on. How are these to be reconciled? Do not these impair the credibility of the Vedas?
Maharshi: Different seers saw different aspects of truths at different times , each emphasising some one view. Why do you worry about their conflicting statements? The essential aim of the Veda is to teach us the nature of the imperishable Atman and show us that we are That.
D.: I am satisfied with that portion.
Maharshi: Then treat all the rest as artha vada (auxiliary arguments) or expositions for the sake of the ignorant who seek to trace the genesis of things and matters.
D.: I am a sinner. I do not perform religious sacrifices (homas), etc.
Shall I have painful rebirths for that reason? Pray save me!
Maharshi: Why do you say that you are a sinner? Your trust in God is sufficient to save you from rebirths. Cast all burden on Him. In the Tiruvachagam it is said: "Though I am worse than a dog, you have graciously undertaken to protect me. This delusion of birth and death is maintained by you. Moreover, am I the person to sift and judge? Am I the Lord here? Oh Maheswara! It is for you to roll me through bodies (by births and deaths) or to keep me fixed at your own feet." Therefore have faith and that will save you.
D.: Sir, I have faith - and still I encounter difficulties. Weakness and giddiness afflict me after I practise concentration.
Maharshi: Breath-control (pranayama [?]) properly performed should increase one's strength.
Page 37D.: I have my professional work and yet I want to be in perpetual dhyana [?]. Will they conflict with each other?
Maharshi: There will be no conflict. As you practise both and develop your powers you will be able to attend to both. You will begin to look on business as a dream. Says the Bhagavad Gita: "That which is the night of all beings, for the disciplined man is the time of waking; when other beings are waking, then is it night for the sage who seeth." (11.69.)
Talk 29 Talk 31
Talk 29
4th February, 1935
Talk 29.
On another occasion, the evening was calm and cloudy. It was drizzling occasionally and somewhat cool in consequence. The windows of the Asramam Hall were closed and Maharshi was seated as usual on the sofa. Facing him sat the devotees. Some visitors had come from Cuddalore. A Sub-Judge, accompanied by two elderly ladies, was among them. The Sub-Judge began the discussion as to the impermanence of all mundane things, by putting the question. "Has the discrimination between Reality and Unreality (Sat asat vicharana) the efficacy in itself to lead us to the realisation of the one Imperishable?"
Maharshi: As propounded by all and realised by all true seekers, fixity in the Supreme Spirit (Brahma nishta) alone can make us know and realise it. It being of us and in us, any amount of discrimination (vivechana [?]) can lead us only one step forward, by making us renouncers, by goading us to discard the seeming (abhasa [?]) as transitory and to hold fast to the eternal truth and presence alone. The conversation turned upon the question as to whether Iswara
Prasad (Divine Grace) is necessary for the attaining of samrajya [?] (universal dominion) or whether a jiva's honest and strenuous efforts to attain it cannot of themselves lead him to That from whence is no return to life and death. The Maharshi with an ineffable smile which lit up His Holy Face and which was all-pervasive, shining upon the coterie around him, replied in tones of certainty and with the ring of truth; "Divine Grace is essential for Realisation. It leads one to God-realisation. But such Grace is vouchsafed only to him who is a true devotee or a yogin, who has striven hard and ceaselessly on the path towards freedom."
D.: There are six centres mentioned in the Yoga books; but the jiva [?]
is said to reside in the Heart. Is it not so?
Maharshi: Yes. The jiva is said to remain in the Heart in deep sleep; and in the brain in the waking state. The Heart need not be taken to be the muscular cavity with four chambers which propels blood. There are indeed passages which support the view. There are others who take it to mean a set of ganglia or nerve centres about that region. Whichever view is correct does not matter to us. We are not concerned with anything less than ourselves. That we have certainly within us. There could be no doubts or discussions about that. The Heart is used in the Vedas and the scriptures to denote the place whence the notion `I' springs. Does it spring only from the fleshy ball? It springs within us somewhere right in the middle of our being. The `I' has no location. Everything is the Self. There is nothing but that. So the Heart must be said to be the entire body of ourselves and of the entire universe, conceived as `I'. But to help the practiser (abhyasi [?]) we have to indicate a definite part of the Universe, or of the Body. So this Heart is pointed out as the seat of the Self. But in truth we are everywhere, we are all that is, and there is nothing else.
D.: It is said that Divine Grace is necessary to attain successful undistracted mind (samadhi). Is that so?
Maharshi: We are God (Iswara). Iswara Drishti (i.e., seeing ourselves as God)
is itself Divine Grace. So we need Divine Grace to get God's Grace. Maharshi smiles and all devotees laugh together.
D.: There is also Divine Favour (Iswara anugraham) as distinct from Divine Grace (Iswara prasadam). Is that so?
Maharshi: The thought of God is Divine Favour! He is by nature Grace (prasad or arul). It is by God's Grace that you think of God.
D.: Is not the Master's Grace the result of God's Grace?
Maharshi: Why distinguish between the two? The Master is the same as God and not different from him.
D.: When an endeavour is made to lead the right life and to concentrate thought on the Self, there is often a downfall and break. What is to be done?
Maharshi: It will come all right in the end. There is the steady impulse of your determination that sets you on your feet again after every downfall and breakdown. Gradually the obstacles are all overcome and your current becomes stronger. Everything comes right in the end. Steady determination is what is required.
Talk 28 Talk 30
Talk 28
4th February, 1935
Talk 28.
D.: What is the interrelation between regulation of thought and regulation of breath?
Maharshi: Thought (intellectual) and respiration, circulation, etc. (vegetative) activities are both different aspects of the same - the individual life. Both depend upon (or metaphorically `reside' or `inhere' in) life. Personality and other ideas spring from it like the vital activity. If respiration or other vital activity is forcibly repressed, thought also is repressed. If thought is forcibly slowed down and pinned to a point, the vital activity of respiration is slowed down, made even and confined to the lowest level compatible with life. In both cases the distracting variety of thought is temporarily at an end. The interaction is noticeable in other ways also. Take the will to live. That is thought-power. That sustains and keeps up life when other vitality is almost exhausted and delays death. In the absence of such will-power death is accelerated. So thought is said to carry life with it in the flesh and from one fleshy body to another.
D.: Are there any aids to (1) concentration and (2) casting off distractions?
Maharshi: Physically the digestive and other organs are kept free from irritation. Therefore food is regulated both in quantity and quality. Non-irritants are eaten, avoiding chillies, excess of salt, onions, wine, opium, etc. Avoid constipation, drowsiness and excitement, and all foods which induce them. Mentally take interest in one thing and fix the mind on it. Let such interest be all-absorbing to the exclusion of everything else. This is dispassion (vairagya [?]) and concentration. God or mantra [?] may be chosen. The mind gains strength to grasp the subtle and merge into it.
D.: Distractions result from inherited tendencies. Can they be cast off too?
Maharshi: Yes. Many have done so. Believe it! They did so because they believed they could. Vasanas (predispositions) can be obliterated. It is done by concentration on that which is free from vasanas and yet is their core.
D.: How long is the practice to continue?
Maharshi: Till success is achieved and until yoga-liberation becomes permanent. Success begets success. If one distraction is conquered the next is conquered and so on, until all are finally conquered. The process is like reducing an enemy's fort by slaying its man-power - one by one, as each issues out.
D.: What is the goal of this process?
Maharshi: Realising the Real.
D.: What is the nature of the Reality?
Maharshi: (a) Existence without beginning or end - eternal.
(b) Existence everywhere, endless, infinite.
(c) Existence underlying all forms, all changes, all forces, all matter and all spirit. The many change and pass away (phenomena), whereas the One always endures (noumenon).
(d) The one displacing the triads, i.e., the knower, the knowledge and the known. The triads are only appearances in time and space, whereas the Reality lies beyond and behind them. They are like a mirage over the Reality. They are the result of delusion.
D.: If `I' also be an illusion, who then casts off the illusion?
Maharshi: The `I' casts off the illusion of `I' and yet remains as `I'. Such is the paradox of Self-Realisation. The realised do not see any contradiction in it. Take the case of bhakti [?] - I approach Iswara and pray to be absorbed in Him. I then surrender myself in faith and by concentration. What remains afterwards? In place of the original `I', perfect self-surrender leaves a residuum of God in which the `I' is lost. This is the highest form of devotion (parabhakti), prapatti [?] , surrender or the height of vairagya. You give up this and that of `my' possessions. If you give up `I' and `Mine' instead, all are given up at a stroke. The very seed of possession is lost. Thus the evil is nipped in the bud or crushed in the germ itself. Dispassion (vairagya) must be very strong to do this. Eagerness to do it must be equal to that of a man kept under water trying to rise up to the surface for his life.
D.: Cannot this trouble and difficulty be lessened with the aid of a Master or an Ishta Devata [?] (God chosen for worship)? Cannot they give the power to see our Self as it is - to change us into themselves - to take us into Self-Realisation?
Maharshi: Ishta Devata and Guru are aids - very powerful aids on this path.
But an aid to be effective requires your effort also. Your effort is a sine qua non. It is you who should see the sun. Can spectacles and the sun see for you? You yourself have to see your true nature. Not much aid is required for doing it!
D.: What is the relation between my free-will and the overwhelming might of the Omnipotent?
(a) Is omniscience of God consistent with ego's freewill?
(b) Is omnipotence of God consistent with ego's freewill?
(c) Are the natural laws consistent with God's free-will?
Maharshi: Yes. Free-will is the present appearing to a limited faculty of sight and will. The same ego sees its past activity as falling into a course of `law' or rules - its own free-will being one of the links in that course of law. Omnipotence and omniscience of God are then seen by the ego to have acted through the appearance of his own free-will. So he comes to the conclusion that the ego must go by appearances. Natural laws are manifestations of God's will and they have been laid down.
D.: Is the study of science, psychology, physiology, philosophy, etc. helpful for:-
(1) this art of yoga-liberation.
(2) the intuitive grasp of the unity of the Real?
Maharshi: Very little. Some knowledge is needed for yoga and it may be found in books. But practical application is the thing needed, and personal example, personal touch and personal instructions are the most helpful aids. As for the other, a person may laboriously convince himself of the truth to be intuited, i.e., its function and nature, but the actual intuition is akin to feeling and requires practice and personal contact. Mere book learning is not of any great use. After realisation all intellectual loads are useless burdens and are thrown overboard as jetsam. Jettisoning the ego is necessary and natural.
D.: How does dream differ from waking?
Maharshi: In dreams one takes on different bodies, and they re-enter this body when one dreams of sense-contacts.
D.: What is happiness? Is it inhering in the Atman or in the object, or in the contact between the subject and the object? But we do not see happiness in our affairs. When does It actually arise?
Maharshi: When there is contact of a desirable sort or memory thereof , and when there is freedom from undesirable contacts or memory thereof, we say there is happiness. Such happiness is relative and is better called pleasure.
But men want absolute and permanent happiness. This does not reside in objects, but in the Absolute. It is Peace free from pain and pleasure - it is a neutral state.
D.: In what sense is happiness our real nature?
Maharshi: Perfect Bliss is Brahman. Perfect Peace is of the Self. That alone exists and is conscious. The same conclusion is arrived at: (a) judged metaphysically, and (b) inferred by Bhakti Marga [?] (Path of Devotion). We pray to God for Bliss and receive it by Grace. The bestower of bliss must be Bliss itself and also Infinite. Therefore, Iswara is the Personal God of infinite power and bliss. Brahman is Bliss, impersonal and absolute. The finite egos, deriving their source from Brahman and then Iswara, are in their spiritual nature bliss only. Biologically, an organism functions because such functions are attended with happiness. It is pleasure that helps our growth; food, exercise, rest, and gregarious qualities. The psychology (and metaphysics) of pleasure is perhaps this; Our nature is primarily one, entire, blissful.
Take this as a probable hypothesis. Creation is by the entire Godhead breaking into God and Nature (maya [?] or prakriti [?]). This maya is of two parts: (para [?]) - the supporting essence and (apara [?]) the five elements, mind, intellect, and ego (eightfold). Ego's perfection is suddenly broken at a point and a want is felt giving rise to a desire to get something or do something. When that want is cured by the fulfilment of that desire, the ego is happy and the original perfection is restored. Therefore happiness may be said to be our natural condition or nature. Pleasure and pain are relative and refer to our finite state, with progress by satisfaction of want. If relative progress is stopped and the soul merges into Brahman - of the nature of perfect peace - that soul ceases to have relative, temporary pleasure and enjoys perfect peace - Bliss.
Hence Self-Realisation is Bliss; it is realizing the Self as the limitless spiritual eye (jnana dristi) and not clairvoyance; it is the highest self-surrender. Samsara [?] (the world-cycle) is sorrow.
D.: Why then is samsara [?] - creation and manifestation as finitised - so full of sorrow and evil?
Maharshi: God's will!
D.: Why does God will it so?
Maharshi: It is inscrutable. No motive can be attributed to that Power -
no desire, no end to achieve can be asserted of that one Infinite, All-wise and All-powerful Being. God is untouched by activities, which take place in His presence; compare the sun and the world activities. There is no meaning in attributing responsibility and motive to the One before it becomes many. But God's will for the prescribed course of events is a good solution of the free-will problem (vexata quaestio). If the mind is restless on account of a sense of the imperfect and unsatisfactory character of what befalls us or what is committed or omitted by us, then it is wise to drop the sense of responsibility and free-will by regarding ourselves as the ordained instruments of the All-wise and All-powerful, to do and suffer as He pleases. He carries all burdens and gives us peace.
Talk 27 Talk 29
Talk 27
4th February, 1935
Talk 27.
D.: How are they practised?
Maharshi: An examination of the ephemeral nature of external phenomen a leads to vairagya [?]. Hence enquiry (vichara [?]) is the first and foremost step to be taken. When vichara continues automatically, it results in a contempt for wealth, fame, ease, pleasure, etc. The `I' thought becomes clearer for inspection. The source of `I' is the Heart - the final goal. If, however, the aspirant is not temperamentally suited to Vichara Marga (to the introspective analytical method), he must develop bhakti [?] (devotion) to an ideal - may be God, Guru , humanity in general, ethical laws, or even the idea of beauty. When
Page 26one of these takes possession of the individual, other attachments grow weaker, i.e., dispassion (vairagya) develops. Attachment for the ideal simultaneously grows and finally holds the field. Thus ekagrata [?] (concentration) grows simultaneously and imperceptibly - with or without visions and direct aids. In the absence of enquiry and devotion, the natural sedative pranayama [?] (breath regulation) may be tried. This is known as Yoga Marga. If life is imperilled the whole interest centres round the one point, the saving of life. If the breath is held the mind cannot afford to (and does not) jump at its pets - external objects. Thus there is rest for the mind so long as the breath is held. All attention being turned on breath or its regulation, other interests are lost. Again, passions are attended with irregular breathing, whereas calm and happiness are attended with slow and regular breathing. Paroxysm of joy is in fact as painful as one of pain, and both are accompanied by ruffled breaths. Real peace is happiness. Pleasures do not form happiness. The mind improves by practice and becomes finer just as the razor's edge is sharpened by stropping. The mind is then better able to tackle internal or external problems. If an aspirant be unsuited temperamentally for the first two methods and circumstantially (on account of age) for the third method, he must try the Karma Marga [?] (doing good deeds, for example, social service). His nobler instincts become more evident and he derives impersonal pleasure. His smaller self is less assertive and has a chance of expanding its good side. The man becomes duly equipped for one of the three aforesaid paths. His intuition may also develop directly by this single method.
D.: Can a line of thought or a series of questions induce Self-
hypnotism? Should it not be reduced to a single point analysing the unanalysable, elementary and vaguely perceived and elusive `I'?
Maharshi: Yes. It is really like gazing into vacancy or a dazzling crystal or light.
D.: Can the mind be fixed to that point? How?
Maharshi: If the mind is distracted, ask the question promptly, "To whom do these distracting thoughts arise?" That takes you back to the `I' point promptly.
Page 27D.: How long can the mind stay or be kept in the Heart?
Maharshi: The period extends by practice.
D.: What happens at the end of the period?
Maharshi: The mind returns to the present normal state. Unity in the Heart is replaced by variety of phenomena perceived. This is called the outgoing mind. The heart-going mind is called the resting mind.
D.: Is all this process merely intellectual or does it exhibit feeling predominantly?
Maharshi: The latter.
D.: How do all thoughts cease when the mind is in the Heart?
Maharshi: By force of will, with strong faith in the truth of the Master's teaching to that effect.
D.: What is the good of this process? M..: (a) Conquest of the will - development of concentration. (b) Conquest of passions - development of dispassion. (c) Increased practice of virtue - (samatva [?]) equality to all.
D.: Why should one adopt this self-hypnotism by thinking on the unthinkable point? Why not adopt other methods like gazing into light, holding the breath, hearing music, hearing internal sounds, repetition of the sacred syllable (Pranava [?]) or other mantras?
Maharshi: Light-gazing stupefies the mind and produces catalepsy of the will for the time being, yet secures no permanent benefit. Breath control benumbs the will for the time being only. Sound-hearing produces similar results - unless the mantra [?] is sacred and secures the help of a higher power to purify and raise the thoughts.
Talk 26 Talk 28
Talk 26
4th February, 1935
Talk 26.
D.: How shall we discover the nature of the mind i.e., its ultimate cause, or the noumenon of which it is a manifestation?
Maharshi: Arranging thoughts in the order of value, the `I' thought is the all-
important thought. Personality-idea or thought is also the root or the stem of all other thoughts, since each idea or thought arises only as someone's thought and is not known to exist independently of the ego. The ego therefore exhibits thought-activity. The second and the third persons do not appear except to the first person. Therefore they arise only after the first person appears, so all the three persons seem to rise and sink together. Trace, then, the ultimate cause of `I' or personality. The `I' idea arises to an embodied ego and should be related to a body or organism. Has it a location in the body or a special relation to any particular spot, as speech which has its centre in the brain or amativeness in the brain? Similarly, has `I' got any centre in the brain, blood, or viscera? Thought-life is seen to centre round the brain and the spinal-cord which in turn are fed by the blood circulating in them, carrying food and air duly mixed up which are transformed into nerve matter. Thus, vegetative life - including
Page 25circulation, respiration, alimentation, etc. - or vital force, is said to be (or reside in) the core or essence of the organism. Thus the mind may be regarded as the manifestation of vital force which again may be conceived as residing the Heart.
D.: Now for the art of eliminating the mind and developing intuition in its stead, are they two distinct stages with a possible neutral ground which is neither mind nor intuition? Or does the absence of mental activity necessarily involve Self-Realisation?
Maharshi: To the abhyasi [?] (practitioner) there are two distinctive stages.
There is a neutral ground of sleep, coma, faint, insanity, etc., in which the mental operations either do not exist or consciousness of Self does not prevail.
D.: Taking the first part first, how is the mind to be eliminated or relative consciousness transcended?
Maharshi: The mind is by nature restless. Begin liberating it from its restlessness; give it peace; make it free from distractions; train it to look inward; make this a habit. This is done by ignoring the external world and removing the obstacles to peace of mind.
D.: How is restlessness removed from the mind?
Maharshi: External contacts - contacts with objects other than itself - make the mind restless. Loss of interest in non-Self, (vairagya [?]) is the first step. Then the habits of introspection and concentration follow. They are characterised by control of external senses, internal faculties, etc. (sama, dama, etc.) ending in samadhi (undistracted mind).
Talk 25 Talk 27
Talk 25
4th February, 1935
Talk 25.
On a former occasion B. V. Narasimha Swami, author of Self-
Realization, asked: Who am I?? How is it to be found?
Maharshi: Ask yourself the question. The body (annamaya kosa [?]) and its functions are not `I'. Going deeper, the mind (manomaya kosa [?]) and its functions are not `I'. The next step takes on to the question. "Wherefrom do these thoughts arise?" The thoughts are spontaneous, superficial or analytical. They operate in intellect. Then, who is aware of them? The existence of thoughts, their clear conceptions and their operations become evident to the individual. The analysis leads to the conclusion that the individuality of the person is operative as the perceiver of the existence of thoughts and of their sequence. This individuality is the ego, or as people say `I'. Vijnanamaya kosa [?] (intellect) is only the sheath of `I' and not the `I' itself. Enquiring further the questions arise, "Who is this `I'? Wherefrom does it come?" `I' was not aware in sleep. Simultaneously with its rise sleep changes to dream or wakefulness. But I am not concerned with dream just now. Who am I now, in the wakeful state? If I originated from sleep, then the `I' was covered up with ignorance. Such an ignorant `I' cannot be what the scriptures say or the wise ones affirm. `I' am beyond even `Sleep'; `I' must be now and here and what I was all along in sleep and dreams also, without the qualities of such states. `I' must therefore be the unqualified substratum underlying these three states (anandamaya kosa [?] transcended). `I' is, in brief, beyond the five sheaths. Next, the residuum left over after discarding all that is not-self is the Self, Sat-Chit-Ananda [?].
D.: How is that Self to be known or realised?
Maharshi: Transcend the present plane of relativity. A separate being (Self)
appears to know something apart from itself (non-Self). That is, the subject is aware of the object. The seer is drik [?]; the seen is drisya [?]. There must be a unity underlying these two, which arises as `ego'. This ego is of the nature of chit [?] (intelligence); achit [?] (insentient object) is only negation of chit. Therefore the underlying essence is akin to the subject and not the object. Seeking the drik, until all drisya disappears, the drik will become subtler and subtler until the absolute drik alone survives. This process is called drisya vilaya [?] (the disappearance of the objective world).
D.: Why should the objects drisya be eliminated? Cannot the Truth be realised even keeping the object as it is?
Maharshi: No. Elimination of drisya means elimination of separate identities of the subject and object. The object is unreal. All drisya (including ego) is the object. Eliminating the unreal, the Reality survives. When a rope is mistaken for a snake, it is enough to remove the erroneous perception of the snake for the truth to be revealed. Without such elimination the truth will not dawn.
D.: When and how is the disappearance of the objective world (drisya
vilaya) to be effected?
Maharshi: It is complete when the relative subject, namely the mind, is eliminated. The mind is the creator of the subject and the object and is the cause of the dualistic idea. Therefore, it is the cause of the wrong notion of limited self and the misery consequent on such erroneous idea.
D.: What is this mind?
Maharshi: Mind is one form of manifestation of life. A block of wood or a subtle machine is not called mind. The vital force manifests as life- activity and also as the conscious phenomena known as the mind.
D.: What is the relation between mind and object? Is the mind contacting something different from it, viz., the world?
Maharshi: The world is `sensed' in the waking and the dream states or is the object of perception and thought, both being mental activities. If there were no such activities as waking and dreaming thought, there would be no `perception' or inference of a `world'. In sleep there is no such activity and `objects and world' do not exist for us in sleep. Hence `reality of the world' may be created by the ego by its act of emergence from sleep; and that reality may be swallowed up or disappear by the soul resuming its nature in sleep. The emergence and disappearance of the world are like the spider producing a gossamer web and then withdrawing it. The spider here underlies all the three states - waking, dreaming, and sleep; such a spider in the person is called Atman (Self), whereas the same with reference to the world (which is considered to issue from the sun) is called Brahman (Supreme Spirit). He that is in man is the same as He that is in the sun. (Sa yaschayam purushe yaschasavaditye sa ekah). While Self or Spirit is unmanifest and inactive, there are no relative doubles; e.g., subject and object - drik and drisya. If the enquiry into the ultimate cause of manifestation of mind itself is pushed on, mind will be found to be only the manifestation of the Real which is otherwise called Atman or Brahman. The mind is termed sukshma [?]
sarira [?] or `subtle-body'; and jiva [?] is the individual soul. The jiva is the essence of the growth of individuality; personality is referred to as jiva. Thought or mind is said to be its phase, or one of the ways in which the jiva manifests itself - the earlier stage or phase of such manifestation being vegetative life. This mind is always seen as being related to, or acting on, some non-mind or matter, and never by itself. Therefore mind and matter co-exist.
Talk 24 Talk 26
Talk 25.
On a former occasion B. V. Narasimha Swami, author of Self-
Realization, asked: Who am I?? How is it to be found?
Maharshi: Ask yourself the question. The body (annamaya kosa [?]) and its functions are not `I'. Going deeper, the mind (manomaya kosa [?]) and its functions are not `I'. The next step takes on to the question. "Wherefrom do these thoughts arise?" The thoughts are spontaneous, superficial or analytical. They operate in intellect. Then, who is aware of them? The existence of thoughts, their clear conceptions and their operations become evident to the individual. The analysis leads to the conclusion that the individuality of the person is operative as the perceiver of the existence of thoughts and of their sequence. This individuality is the ego, or as people say `I'. Vijnanamaya kosa [?] (intellect) is only the sheath of `I' and not the `I' itself. Enquiring further the questions arise, "Who is this `I'? Wherefrom does it come?" `I' was not aware in sleep. Simultaneously with its rise sleep changes to dream or wakefulness. But I am not concerned with dream just now. Who am I now, in the wakeful state? If I originated from sleep, then the `I' was covered up with ignorance. Such an ignorant `I' cannot be what the scriptures say or the wise ones affirm. `I' am beyond even `Sleep'; `I' must be now and here and what I was all along in sleep and dreams also, without the qualities of such states. `I' must therefore be the unqualified substratum underlying these three states (anandamaya kosa [?] transcended). `I' is, in brief, beyond the five sheaths. Next, the residuum left over after discarding all that is not-self is the Self, Sat-Chit-Ananda [?].
D.: How is that Self to be known or realised?
Maharshi: Transcend the present plane of relativity. A separate being (Self)
appears to know something apart from itself (non-Self). That is, the subject is aware of the object. The seer is drik [?]; the seen is drisya [?]. There must be a unity underlying these two, which arises as `ego'. This ego is of the nature of chit [?] (intelligence); achit [?] (insentient object) is only negation of chit. Therefore the underlying essence is akin to the subject and not the object. Seeking the drik, until all drisya disappears, the drik will become subtler and subtler until the absolute drik alone survives. This process is called drisya vilaya [?] (the disappearance of the objective world).
D.: Why should the objects drisya be eliminated? Cannot the Truth be realised even keeping the object as it is?
Maharshi: No. Elimination of drisya means elimination of separate identities of the subject and object. The object is unreal. All drisya (including ego) is the object. Eliminating the unreal, the Reality survives. When a rope is mistaken for a snake, it is enough to remove the erroneous perception of the snake for the truth to be revealed. Without such elimination the truth will not dawn.
D.: When and how is the disappearance of the objective world (drisya
vilaya) to be effected?
Maharshi: It is complete when the relative subject, namely the mind, is eliminated. The mind is the creator of the subject and the object and is the cause of the dualistic idea. Therefore, it is the cause of the wrong notion of limited self and the misery consequent on such erroneous idea.
D.: What is this mind?
Maharshi: Mind is one form of manifestation of life. A block of wood or a subtle machine is not called mind. The vital force manifests as life- activity and also as the conscious phenomena known as the mind.
D.: What is the relation between mind and object? Is the mind contacting something different from it, viz., the world?
Maharshi: The world is `sensed' in the waking and the dream states or is the object of perception and thought, both being mental activities. If there were no such activities as waking and dreaming thought, there would be no `perception' or inference of a `world'. In sleep there is no such activity and `objects and world' do not exist for us in sleep. Hence `reality of the world' may be created by the ego by its act of emergence from sleep; and that reality may be swallowed up or disappear by the soul resuming its nature in sleep. The emergence and disappearance of the world are like the spider producing a gossamer web and then withdrawing it. The spider here underlies all the three states - waking, dreaming, and sleep; such a spider in the person is called Atman (Self), whereas the same with reference to the world (which is considered to issue from the sun) is called Brahman (Supreme Spirit). He that is in man is the same as He that is in the sun. (Sa yaschayam purushe yaschasavaditye sa ekah). While Self or Spirit is unmanifest and inactive, there are no relative doubles; e.g., subject and object - drik and drisya. If the enquiry into the ultimate cause of manifestation of mind itself is pushed on, mind will be found to be only the manifestation of the Real which is otherwise called Atman or Brahman. The mind is termed sukshma [?]
sarira [?] or `subtle-body'; and jiva [?] is the individual soul. The jiva is the essence of the growth of individuality; personality is referred to as jiva. Thought or mind is said to be its phase, or one of the ways in which the jiva manifests itself - the earlier stage or phase of such manifestation being vegetative life. This mind is always seen as being related to, or acting on, some non-mind or matter, and never by itself. Therefore mind and matter co-exist.
Talk 24 Talk 26
Talk 24
4th February, 1935
Talk 24.
Mrs. Piggott: Why do you take milk, but not eggs?
Maharshi: The domesticated cows yield more milk than necessary for their calves and they find it a pleasure to be relieved of the milk.
D.: But the hen cannot contain the eggs?
Maharshi: But there are potential lives in them.
D.: Thoughts cease suddenly, then `I-I' rises up as suddenly and continues. It is only in the feeling and not in the intellect. Can it be right?
Maharshi: It is certainly right. Thoughts must cease and reason disappear for `I-I' to rise up and be felt. Feeling is the prime factor and not reason.
D.: Moreover it is not in the head but in the right side of the chest.
Maharshi: It ought to be so. Because the heart is there.
D.: When I see outside it disappears. What is to be done?
Maharshi: It must be held tight.
D.: If one is active with such remembrance, will the actions be always right?
Maharshi: They ought to be. However, such a person is not concerned with the right or wrong of his actions. Such a person's actions are God's and therefore they must be right.
D.: Why then the restrictions of food given for such?
Maharshi: Your present experience is due to the influence of the atmosphere you are in. Can you have it outside this atmosphere? The experience is spasmodic. Until it becomes permanent practice is necessary. Restrictions of food are aids for such experience to be repeated. After one gets established in truth the restrictions drop away naturally. Moreover, food influences the mind and it must be kept pure.
The lady told a disciple later: "I feel the vibrations from him more intensely and I am able to reach the `I' centre more readily than before."
Talk 23 Talk 25
Talk 23
2nd February, 1935
On Masters
Mr. Evans-Wentz continued another day: "May one have more than one spiritual master?"
Maharshi: Who is a Master? He is the Self after all. According to the stages of the development of the mind the Self manifests as the Master externally. The famous ancient saint Avadhuta[1] said that he had more than 24 Masters. The Master is one from whom one learns anything. The Guru may be sometimes inanimate also, as in the case of Avadhuta. God, Guru and the Self are identical. A spiritual-minded man thinks that God is all-pervading and takes God for his Guru. Later, God brings him in contact with a personal Guru and the man recognises him as all in all. Lastly the same man is made by the grace of the Master to feel that his Self is the Reality and nothing else. Thus he finds that the Self is the Master.
D.: Does Sri Bhagavan initiate his disciples?
Maharshi kept silent. Thereafter one of the devotees took it upon himself to answer, saying, "Maharshi does not see anyone as outside his Self. So there are no disciples for him. His Grace is all-pervading and He communicates his Grace to any deserving individual in silence."
D.: How does book-lore help in Self-Realisation?
A.: Only so far as to make one spiritually-minded.
D.: How far does intellect help?
A.: Only so far as to make one sink the intellect in the ego, and the ego in the Self.
[1] Dattatreya
Talk 22 Talk 24
Talk 22
31st January, 1935
Saatvic diet
Mrs. Piggott returned from Madras for a further visit. She asked questions relating to diet regulation.
D.: What diet is prescribed for a sadhak (one who is engaged in spiritual practices)?
Maharshi: Satvic food in limited quantities.
D.: What is satvic food?
Maharshi: Bread, fruits, vegetables, milk, etc.
D.: Some people take fish in North India. May it be done?
No answer was made by the Maharshi.
D.: We Europeans are accustomed to a particular diet; change of diet affects health and weakens the mind. Is it not necessary to keep up physical health?
Maharshi: Quite necessary. The weaker the body the stronger the mind grows.
D.: In the absence of our usual diet our health suffers and the mind loses strength.
Maharshi: What do you mean by strength of mind?
D.: The power to eliminate worldly attachment.
Maharshi: The quality of food influences the mind. The mind feeds on the food consumed.
D.: Really! How can the Europeans adjust themselves to satvic food only?
Maharshi: (Pointing to Mr. Evans-Wentz) You have been taking our food. Do you feel uncomfortable on that account?
Mr. Evans-Wentz: No. Because I am accustomed to it.
D.: What about those not so accustomed?
Maharshi: Habit is only adjustment to the environment. It is the mind that matters. The fact is that the mind has been trained to think certain foods tasty and good. The food material is to be had both in vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet equally well. But the mind desires such food as it is accustomed to and considers tasty.
D.: Are there restrictions for the realised man in a similar manner?
Maharshi: No. He is steady and not influenced by the food he takes.
D.: Is it not killing life to prepare meat diet?
Maharshi: Ahimsa [?] stands foremost in the code of discipline for the yogis.
D.: Even plants have life.
Maharshi: So too the slabs you sit on!
D.: May we gradually get ourselves accustomed to vegetarian food?
Maharshi: Yes. That is the way.
Talk 21 Talk 23
Talk 21
31st January, 1935
Talk 21.
Mr. Ellappa Chettiar, a member of the Legislative Council of Madras Presidency and an influential Hindu, asked: "Why is it said that the knowledge born of hearing is not firm, whereas that born of contemplation is firm?"
Maharshi: On the other hand it is said that hearsay knowledge (paroksha [?]) is not firm, whereas that born of one's own realisation (aparoksha [?]) is firm. It is also said that hearing helps the intellectual understanding of the Truth, that meditation makes the understanding clear, and finally that contemplation brings about realisation of the Truth. Furthermore, they say also that all such knowledge is not firm and that it is firm only when it is as clear and intimate as a gooseberry in the hollow of one's palm. There are those who affirm that hearing alone will suffice, because a competent person who had already, perhaps in previous incarnations, qualified himself, realises and abides in peace as soon as he hears the Truth told him only once, whereas the person not so qualified must pass through the stages prescribed above, before falling into samadhi.
References:
HastAmalakA Stotra
Talk 20 Talk 22
Talk 20
30th January, 1935
Talk 20.
Mr. Evans-Wentz: Is solitude necessary for a Jnani [?]?
Maharshi: Solitude is in the mind of man. One might be in the thick of the world and maintain serenity of mind; such a one is in solitude. Another may stay in a forest, but still be unable to control his mind. He cannot be said to be in solitude. Solitude is a function of the mind. A man attached to desire cannot get solitude wherever he may be; a detached man is always in solitude.
D.: So then, one might be engaged in work and be free from desire and keep up solitude. Is it so?
Maharshi: Yes. Work performed with attachment is a shackle, whereas work performed with detachment does not affect the doer. He is, even while working, in solitude.
D.: They say that there are many saints in Tibet who remain in solitude and are still very helpful to the world. How can it be?
Maharshi: It can be so. Realisation of the Self is the greatest help that can be rendered to humanity. Therefore, the saints are said to be helpful, though they remain in forests. But it should not be forgotten that solitude is not in forests only. It can be had even in towns, in the thick of worldly occupations.
D.: It is not necessary that the saints should mix with people and be helpful to them?
Maharshi: The Self alone is the Reality; the world and the rest of it are not. The realised being does not see the world as different from himself.
D.: Thus then, the saint's realisation leads to the uplift of humanity without the latter being aware of it. Is it so?
Maharshi: Yes. The help is imperceptible but is still there. A saint helps the whole of humanity, unknown to the latter.
D.: Would it not be better if he mixed with others?
Maharshi: There are no others to mix with. The Self is the one and only Reality.
D.: If there be a hundred Self-realised men will it not be to the greater benefit of the world?
Maharshi: When you say `Self' you refer to the unlimited, but when you add `men' to it, you limit the meaning. There is only one Infinite Self.
D.: Yes, yes, I see! Sri Krishna has said in the Gita that work must be performed without attachment and such work is better than idleness. Is it Karma Yoga?
Maharshi: What is said is given out to suit the temperament of the hearers.
D.: In Europe it is not understood by the people that a man in solitude can be helpful. They imagine that men working in the world can alone be useful. When will this confusion cease? Will the European mind continue wading in the morass or will it realise the truth?
Maharshi: Never mind Europe or America. Where are they except in your mind? Realise your Self and then all is realised. If you dream and see several men, and then wake up and recall your dream, do you try to ascertain if the persons of your dream creation are also awake?
D.: What does Maharshi think of the theory of universal illusion (Maya [?])?
Maharshi: What is Maya? It is only Reality.
D.: Is not Maya illusion?
Maharshi: Maya is used to signify the manifestations of the Reality. Thus Maya is only Reality.
D.: Some say that Sri Sankaracharya was only intellectual and not realised. Is it so?
Maharshi: Why worry about Sankaracharya? Realise your own Self. Others can take care of themselves.
D.: Jesus Christ cured people of their diseases. Is that only an occult power (siddhi [?])?
Maharshi: Was Jesus aware at the time that he was curing men of their diseases? He could not have been conscious of his powers. There is a story related as follows: Jesus had once cured a man of his blindness. The man turned wicked, in course of time. Meeting him after some years, Jesus observed his wickedness and asked him why he was so. He replied saying that, when he was blind, he could not commit any sin. But after Jesus had cured him of blindness he grew wicked and Jesus was responsible for his wickedness.
D.: Was not Jesus a Perfected Being possessing occult powers (siddhi)?
Maharshi: He could not have been aware of his powers (siddhis).
D.: Is it not good to acquire them, such as telepathy, etc.?
Maharshi: Telepathy or radio enables one to see and hear from afar. They are all the same, hearing and seeing. Whether one hears from near or far does not make any difference in hearing. The fundamental factor is the hearer, the subject. Without the hearer or the seer, there can be no hearing or seeing. The latter are the functions of the mind. The occult powers (siddhis) are therefore only in the mind. They are not natural to the Self. That which is not natural, but acquired, cannot be permanent, and is not worth striving for. They denote extended powers. A man is possessed of limited powers and is miserable; he wants to expand his powers so that he may be happy.
But consider if it will be so; if with limited perceptions one is miserable, with extended perceptions the misery must increase proportionately. Occult powers will not bring happiness to anyone, but will make him all the more miserable! Moreover what are these powers for? The would-be occultist (siddha [?]) desires to display the siddhis so that others may appreciate him. He seeks appreciation, and if it is not forthcoming he will not be happy. There must be others to appreciate him. He may even find another possessor of higher powers. That will cause jealousy and breed unhappiness. The higher occultist (siddha) may meet a still higher siddha and so on until there will come one who will blow up everything in a trice. Such is the highest adept (siddha) and He is God or the Self. Which is the real power? Is it to increase prosperity or bring about peace? That which results in peace is the highest perfection (siddhi).
D.: But common people in Europe and America would not appreciate such an attitude and would desire a display of powers and instructions by lectures, etc.
Maharshi: Lectures may entertain individuals for a few hours without improving them. Silence on the other hand is permanent and benefits the whole of humanity.
D.: But silence is not understood.
Maharshi: It does not matter. By silence, eloquence is meant. Oral lectures are not so eloquent as silence. Silence is unceasing eloquence. The Primal Master, Dakshinamurti, is the ideal. He taught his rishi disciples by silence.
D.: But then there were disciples for Him. It was all right. Now it is different. They must be sought after and helped.
Maharshi: That is a sign of ignorance. The power which created you has created the world. If it can take care of you, it can similarly take care of the world also.
D.: What does Bhagavan think of the "lost soul" mentioned by Jesus Christ?
Maharshi: Think what there is to be lost. Is there anything to lose? What matters is only that which is natural. Such must be eternal and cannot be experienced. That which is born must die; that which is acquired must be lost. Were you born? You are ever existent. The Self can never be lost.
D.: Buddha advises the eight-fold path as being the best so that none might be lost.
Maharshi: Yes. Such is called Raja Yoga by the Hindus.
D.: Is yoga advised for a spiritual aspirant?
Maharshi: Yoga helps control of mind.
D.: But does it not lead to occult powers (siddhis) which are said to be dangerous?
Maharshi: But you qualified your question by the words "a spiritual aspirant".
You did not mean a seeker of powers (siddhis).
Talk 19 Talk 21
Talk 18
26th January, 1935
Talk 18.
Mr. Evans-Wentz asked: There are yogis with occult powers. What does Maharshi think of them?
Maharshi: The powers are known by hearsay or by exhibition. Thus they are in the realm of the mind only.
D.: Mr. Brunton mentions a yogi in Madras who is said to hold communion with his master in the Himalayas.
Maharshi: It is not more marvellous than telepathy - so commonly known.
Telepathy cannot exist without the hearer and television without the seer. What is the difference between hearing from far and from near? It is only the hearer who matters. Without the hearer there cannot be hearing; without the seer there cannot be vision.
D.: So you want me to consider the subject and not the object.
Maharshi: The subject and object appear only after the mind has arisen. The mind comprises them and also the occult powers.
D.: Can the manifestations of light (jothi [?]) be seen on Arunachala Hill?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: Is there any psychic effect in visiting sacred places like Mt. Kailas, Benares, etc.?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: Is there any benefit accruing by dying in Benares?
Maharshi: Yes, the meaning will be clear if the real Benares and real dying be understood.
D.: You mean that they are in the Self?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: There are six centres in the body and there are corresponding centres in the world.
Maharshi: Yes. What is in the world is in the body; and what is in the body is in the world also.
D.: Is the sacredness of Benares a matter of faith, or is it externally also real?
Maharshi: Both.
D.: Some people are attracted to one place of pilgrimage and others to another. Is it according to their temperaments?
Maharshi: Yes. Just consider how all of you born in different places and living in other lands are gathered here today? What is the Force which has attracted you here? If this is understood the other Force is also understood.
Talk 17 Talk 19
Talk 17
24th January, 1935
Talk 17.
Mr. W. Y. Evans-Wentz, an English research scholar of Oxford University, brought a letter of introduction from Mr. Brunton and arrived on a visit.
He was tired after his journey and required rest. He is quite accustomed to Indian ways of living, having visited this country several times. He has learned the Tibetan language and helped in the translation of the "Book of the Dead" and the "Life of Milarepa", the greatest of Tibetan Yogis, and a third book on the "Tibetan Secret Doctrines."
In the afternoon he began to ask a few questions. They related to Yoga. He wanted to know if it was right to kill animals such as tigers, deer, etc., and use the skin for Yoga posture (asana [?]).
Maharshi: The mind is the tiger or the deer.
D.: If everything be illusion, then one can take lives?
Maharshi: To whom is illusion? Find that out! In fact everyone is a "killer of the Self" (atmahan) every moment of his life.
D.: Which posture (asana) is the best?
Maharshi: Any asana, possibly sukha asana [?] (easy posture or the half-Buddh a position). But that is immaterial for jnana, the Path of Knowledge.
D.: Does posture indicate the temperament?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: What are the properties and effects of the tiger's skin, wool, or deer-skin, etc.?
Maharshi: Some have found them out and related them in Yoga books. They correspond to conductors and non-conductors of magnetism, etc. But it is all immaterial for the Path of Knowledge (Jnana Marga [?]). Posture really means location and steadfastness in the Self. It is internal. The others refer to external positions.
D.: Which time is most suitable for meditation?
Maharshi: What is time?
D.: Tell me what it is!
Maharshi: Time is only an idea. There is only the Reality. Whatever you think it is, it looks like that. If you call it time, it is time. If you call it existence, it is existence, and so on. After calling it time, you divide it into days and nights, months, years, hours, minutes, etc. Time is immaterial for the Path of Knowledge. But some of these rules and discipline are good for beginners.
D.: What is Jnana Marga?
Maharshi: Concentration of the mind is in a way common to both Knowledge and Yoga. Yoga aims at union of the individual with the universal, the Reality. This Reality cannot be new. It must exist even now, and it does exist. Therefore the Path of Knowledge tries to find out how viyoga [?] (separation) came about. The separation is from the Reality only.
D.: What is illusion?
Maharshi: To whom is the illusion? Find it out. Then illusion will vanish.
Generally people want to know about illusion and do not examine to whom it is. It is foolish. Illusion is outside and unknown. But the seeker is considered to be known and is inside. Find out what is immediate, intimate, instead of trying to find out what is distant and unknown.
D.: Does Maharshi advise any physical posture for the Europeans?
Maharshi: It may be advisable. However, it must be clearly understood that meditation is not prohibited in the absence of asanas, or prescribed times, or any accessories of the kind.
D.: Does Maharshi have any particular method to impart to the Europeans in particular?
Maharshi: It is according to the mental equipment of the individual. There is indeed no hard and fast rule.
Mr. Evans-Wentz began to ask questions, mostly relating to Yoga preliminaries, for all of which Maharshi replied that they are aids to Yoga, which is itself an aid to Self-realisation, the goal of all.
D.: Is work an obstruction to Self-realisation?
Maharshi: No. For a realised being the Self alone is the Reality, and actions are only phenomenal, not affecting the Self. Even when he acts he has no sense of being an agent. His actions are only involuntary and he remains a witness to them without any attachment. There is no aim for this action. Even one who is still practising the path of Wisdom (jnana) can practise while engaged in work. It may be difficult in the earlier stages for a beginner, but after some practice it will soon be effective and the work will not be found a hindrance to meditation.
D.: What is the practice?
Maharshi: Constant search for `I', the source of the ego. Find out `Who am I??'
The pure `I' is the reality, the Absolute Existence-Consciousness- Bliss. When That is forgotten, all miseries crop up; when that is held fast, the miseries do not affect the person.
D.: Is not brahmacharya [?] (celibacy) necessary for realisation of the Self?
Maharshi: Brahmacharya [?] is `living in Brahman'. It has no connection with celibacy as commonly understood. A real brahmachari [?], that is one who lives in Brahman, finds bliss in the Brahman which is the same as the Self. Why then should you look for other sources of happiness? In fact the emergence from the Self has been the cause of all the misery.
D.: Celibacy is a sine qua non for Yoga?
Maharshi: So it is. Celibacy is certainly an aid to realisation among so many other aids.
D.: Is it then not indispensable? Can a married man realise the Self?
Maharshi: Certainly, it is a matter of fitness of mind. Married or unmarried , a man can realise the Self, because that is here and now. If it were not so, but attainable by some efforts at some other time, and if it were new and something to be acquired, it would not be worthy of pursuit. Because what is not natural cannot be permanent either. But what I say is that the Self is here and now and alone.
D.: God being immanent in all, one should not take life of any kind. Is society right in taking the life of a murderer? Can the State do so either? The Christian countries begin to think that it is wrong to do so.
Page 12
Maharshi: What is it that prompted the murderer to commit the crime? The same power awards him the punishment. Society or the State is only a tool in the hands of the power. You speak of one life taken away; But what about innumerable lives lost in wars?
D.: Quite so. Loss of lives is wrong anyway. Are wars justified?
Maharshi: For a realised man, the one who remains ever in the Self, the loss of one or several or all lives either in this world or in all the three worlds makes no difference. Even if he happens to destroy them all, no sin can touch such a pure soul. Maharshi quoted the Gita, Chapter 18, Verse 17 - "He who is free from the notion of ego, whose intellect is unattached, though he annihilates all the worlds, he slayeth not, nor is he bound by the results of his actions."
D.: Do not one's actions affect the person in after-births?
Maharshi: Are you born now? Why do you think of other births? The fact is that there is neither birth nor death. Let him who is born think of death and palliatives therefore.
D.: How long did it take Maharshi to realise the Self?
Maharshi: This question is asked because the name and form are perceived.
These are the perceptions consequent on the identification of the ego with the gross body. If the ego identifies itself with the subtle mind, as in dream, the perceptions are subtle also. But in sleep there are no perceptions. Was there not the ego still? Unless it was, there cannot be the memory of having slept. Who was it that slept? You did not say in your sleep that you slept. You say it now in your wakeful state. The ego therefore is the same in wakefulness, dream and sleep. Find out the underlying Reality behind these states. That is the Reality underlying these. In that state there is Being alone. There is no you, nor I, nor he; no present, nor past, nor future. It is beyond time and space, beyond expression. It is ever there. Just as a plantain tree produces shoots at its roots, before yielding fruits and perishing, and these shoots, being transplanted, do the same again, so also the original primeval Master of antiquity (Dakshinamurti), who cleared the doubts of his rishi disciples in silence, has left shoots which are ever multiplying. The Guru is a shoot of that Dakshinamurti. The question does not arise when the Self is realised.
D.: Does Maharshi enter the nirvikalpa samadhi [?]?
Maharshi: If the eyes are closed, it is nirvikalpa; if open, it is (though differentiated, still in absolute repose) savikalpa. The ever-present state is the natural state sahaja [?].
Talk 16 Talk 18
Talk 16
19th January, 1935
Talk 16.
Mr. Douglas Ainslie (Mr. Grant Duff), an aristocratic English gentleman, 70 years old, nephew of a former Governor of Madras, an author and poet formerly attached to the British Legation in Athens, Paris and The Hague, had come to Madras as a guest of Government House. He came to see Maharshi with a letter of introduction from Paul Brunton. Next day he returned and remained a little less than an hour in the hall. On both days practically no words were exchanged, only gaze meeting gaze. His habits are abstemious; he remains without food of any kind till 1 p.m. and then lunches; he is said to have coffee and biscuits in the evening and retires without any further food. He has been a bachelor all along, walks a few miles a day on an empty stomach, speaks little and is very graceful in his movements. His voice is low and soft and his words appear to come from the heart. He has friends among whom might be counted the late Sir John Woodroffe, Sir Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan and Prof. Thomas, Sanskrit Professor in Oxford University. He expressed a desire to hear the Vedas. On Monday a letter arrived from Riga and the questions therein happened to coincide with the questions the European visitor had asked relating to the existence of departed souls and how best to serve them.
The reply sent to Riga was read out to him. Tamil songs from Maharshi's "Truth Revealed" and the Vedas were repeated in his presence. He considered the recitations magnificent. He came the next afternoon and to the wonder of others, had an experience on the previous night which he repeated to Maharshi. It was that he had seen something like an electric light within himself in the heart centre on the right side. And he added further that he had seen the sun shining within. Maharshi smiled a little and then had a translation of "Atmavidya" (Self-Knowledge) read out to him wherein there is the cryptic saying that realisation consists in reaching the Atman (Self) which is the expanse of consciousness (chidvyoman) as distinguished from the mind, which is the expansion of chittavyoman. This explanation appealed to him.
Speaking of him later, Maharshi remarked, "Just think of an old man of 70 not choosing to live peacefully in his own house on the income he had earned! How intense has been his earnestness that he has left his native land, dared a sea-voyage of 6,000 miles, and faced the hardships of long railway journeys in a foreign land, ignorant of the language, undergoing the vicissitudes of a lonely life, submitting to the inclemency of a hot climate, in surroundings uncongenial and unaccustomed to him. He could have been happy in his own house. It is his longing for internal peace that has brought him here." Quite so! The intensity of his earnestness is revealed by his illuminating experiences here within four days of his arrival, people say.
With regard to the question concerning departed souls: so long as a man identifies himself with his gross body the thought materialised as gross manifestations must be real to him. Because his body is imagined to have originated from another physical being, the other exists as truly as his own body. Having existed here once it certainly survives death, because the offspring is still here and feels he has been born of the other. Under these circumstances the other world is true; and the departed souls are benefited by prayers offered for them. On the other hand, considered in a different way, the One Reality is the Self from whom has sprung the ego which contains within itself the seeds of predispositions acquired in previous births. The Self illumines the ego, the predispositions and also the gross senses, whereupon the predispositions appear to the senses to have materialised as the universe, and become perceptible to the ego, the reflection of the Self. The ego identifies itself with the body, and so loses sight of the Self and the result of this inadvertence is dark ignorance and the misery of the present life. The fact of the ego rising from the Self and forgetting it, is birth. So, it may be said that the birth of the individual has killed the mother. The present desire to regain one's mother is in reality the desire to regain the Self, which is the same as realising one-self, or the death of the ego; this is surrender unto the mother, so she may live eternally.
Maharshi then read out from the Tamil version of Yoga Vasishta the story of Deerga Tapasi who had two sons, Punya (merit) and Paap (sin). After the death of the parents the younger one mourned the loss and the elder brother consoled him as follows: "Why do you mourn the loss of our parents? I shall tell you where they are; they are only within ourselves and are ourselves. For the life-current has passed through innumerable incarnations, births and deaths, pleasures and pains, etc., just as the water current in a river flows over rocks, pits, sands, elevations and depressions on its way, but still the current is unaffected.
Again the pleasures and pains, births and deaths, are like undulations on the surface of seeming water in the mirage of the ego. The only reality is the Self from where the ego appears, and runs through thoughts which manifest themselves as the universe and in which the mothers and fathers, friends and relatives appear and disappear. They are nothing but manifestations of the Self so that one's parents are not outside the Self. So there is no reason to mourn. Learn it, realise it and be happy."
Talk 15 Talk 17
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