Talk 22
31st January, 1935
Saatvic diet
Mrs. Piggott returned from Madras for a further visit. She asked questions relating to diet regulation.
D.: What diet is prescribed for a sadhak (one who is engaged in spiritual practices)?
Maharshi: Satvic food in limited quantities.
D.: What is satvic food?
Maharshi: Bread, fruits, vegetables, milk, etc.
D.: Some people take fish in North India. May it be done?
No answer was made by the Maharshi.
D.: We Europeans are accustomed to a particular diet; change of diet affects health and weakens the mind. Is it not necessary to keep up physical health?
Maharshi: Quite necessary. The weaker the body the stronger the mind grows.
D.: In the absence of our usual diet our health suffers and the mind loses strength.
Maharshi: What do you mean by strength of mind?
D.: The power to eliminate worldly attachment.
Maharshi: The quality of food influences the mind. The mind feeds on the food consumed.
D.: Really! How can the Europeans adjust themselves to satvic food only?
Maharshi: (Pointing to Mr. Evans-Wentz) You have been taking our food. Do you feel uncomfortable on that account?
Mr. Evans-Wentz: No. Because I am accustomed to it.
D.: What about those not so accustomed?
Maharshi: Habit is only adjustment to the environment. It is the mind that matters. The fact is that the mind has been trained to think certain foods tasty and good. The food material is to be had both in vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet equally well. But the mind desires such food as it is accustomed to and considers tasty.
D.: Are there restrictions for the realised man in a similar manner?
Maharshi: No. He is steady and not influenced by the food he takes.
D.: Is it not killing life to prepare meat diet?
Maharshi: Ahimsa [?] stands foremost in the code of discipline for the yogis.
D.: Even plants have life.
Maharshi: So too the slabs you sit on!
D.: May we gradually get ourselves accustomed to vegetarian food?
Maharshi: Yes. That is the way.
Talk 21 Talk 23
Talk 21
31st January, 1935
Talk 21.
Mr. Ellappa Chettiar, a member of the Legislative Council of Madras Presidency and an influential Hindu, asked: "Why is it said that the knowledge born of hearing is not firm, whereas that born of contemplation is firm?"
Maharshi: On the other hand it is said that hearsay knowledge (paroksha [?]) is not firm, whereas that born of one's own realisation (aparoksha [?]) is firm. It is also said that hearing helps the intellectual understanding of the Truth, that meditation makes the understanding clear, and finally that contemplation brings about realisation of the Truth. Furthermore, they say also that all such knowledge is not firm and that it is firm only when it is as clear and intimate as a gooseberry in the hollow of one's palm. There are those who affirm that hearing alone will suffice, because a competent person who had already, perhaps in previous incarnations, qualified himself, realises and abides in peace as soon as he hears the Truth told him only once, whereas the person not so qualified must pass through the stages prescribed above, before falling into samadhi.
References:
HastAmalakA Stotra
Talk 20 Talk 22
Talk 20
30th January, 1935
Talk 20.
Mr. Evans-Wentz: Is solitude necessary for a Jnani [?]?
Maharshi: Solitude is in the mind of man. One might be in the thick of the world and maintain serenity of mind; such a one is in solitude. Another may stay in a forest, but still be unable to control his mind. He cannot be said to be in solitude. Solitude is a function of the mind. A man attached to desire cannot get solitude wherever he may be; a detached man is always in solitude.
D.: So then, one might be engaged in work and be free from desire and keep up solitude. Is it so?
Maharshi: Yes. Work performed with attachment is a shackle, whereas work performed with detachment does not affect the doer. He is, even while working, in solitude.
D.: They say that there are many saints in Tibet who remain in solitude and are still very helpful to the world. How can it be?
Maharshi: It can be so. Realisation of the Self is the greatest help that can be rendered to humanity. Therefore, the saints are said to be helpful, though they remain in forests. But it should not be forgotten that solitude is not in forests only. It can be had even in towns, in the thick of worldly occupations.
D.: It is not necessary that the saints should mix with people and be helpful to them?
Maharshi: The Self alone is the Reality; the world and the rest of it are not. The realised being does not see the world as different from himself.
D.: Thus then, the saint's realisation leads to the uplift of humanity without the latter being aware of it. Is it so?
Maharshi: Yes. The help is imperceptible but is still there. A saint helps the whole of humanity, unknown to the latter.
D.: Would it not be better if he mixed with others?
Maharshi: There are no others to mix with. The Self is the one and only Reality.
D.: If there be a hundred Self-realised men will it not be to the greater benefit of the world?
Maharshi: When you say `Self' you refer to the unlimited, but when you add `men' to it, you limit the meaning. There is only one Infinite Self.
D.: Yes, yes, I see! Sri Krishna has said in the Gita that work must be performed without attachment and such work is better than idleness. Is it Karma Yoga?
Maharshi: What is said is given out to suit the temperament of the hearers.
D.: In Europe it is not understood by the people that a man in solitude can be helpful. They imagine that men working in the world can alone be useful. When will this confusion cease? Will the European mind continue wading in the morass or will it realise the truth?
Maharshi: Never mind Europe or America. Where are they except in your mind? Realise your Self and then all is realised. If you dream and see several men, and then wake up and recall your dream, do you try to ascertain if the persons of your dream creation are also awake?
D.: What does Maharshi think of the theory of universal illusion (Maya [?])?
Maharshi: What is Maya? It is only Reality.
D.: Is not Maya illusion?
Maharshi: Maya is used to signify the manifestations of the Reality. Thus Maya is only Reality.
D.: Some say that Sri Sankaracharya was only intellectual and not realised. Is it so?
Maharshi: Why worry about Sankaracharya? Realise your own Self. Others can take care of themselves.
D.: Jesus Christ cured people of their diseases. Is that only an occult power (siddhi [?])?
Maharshi: Was Jesus aware at the time that he was curing men of their diseases? He could not have been conscious of his powers. There is a story related as follows: Jesus had once cured a man of his blindness. The man turned wicked, in course of time. Meeting him after some years, Jesus observed his wickedness and asked him why he was so. He replied saying that, when he was blind, he could not commit any sin. But after Jesus had cured him of blindness he grew wicked and Jesus was responsible for his wickedness.
D.: Was not Jesus a Perfected Being possessing occult powers (siddhi)?
Maharshi: He could not have been aware of his powers (siddhis).
D.: Is it not good to acquire them, such as telepathy, etc.?
Maharshi: Telepathy or radio enables one to see and hear from afar. They are all the same, hearing and seeing. Whether one hears from near or far does not make any difference in hearing. The fundamental factor is the hearer, the subject. Without the hearer or the seer, there can be no hearing or seeing. The latter are the functions of the mind. The occult powers (siddhis) are therefore only in the mind. They are not natural to the Self. That which is not natural, but acquired, cannot be permanent, and is not worth striving for. They denote extended powers. A man is possessed of limited powers and is miserable; he wants to expand his powers so that he may be happy.
But consider if it will be so; if with limited perceptions one is miserable, with extended perceptions the misery must increase proportionately. Occult powers will not bring happiness to anyone, but will make him all the more miserable! Moreover what are these powers for? The would-be occultist (siddha [?]) desires to display the siddhis so that others may appreciate him. He seeks appreciation, and if it is not forthcoming he will not be happy. There must be others to appreciate him. He may even find another possessor of higher powers. That will cause jealousy and breed unhappiness. The higher occultist (siddha) may meet a still higher siddha and so on until there will come one who will blow up everything in a trice. Such is the highest adept (siddha) and He is God or the Self. Which is the real power? Is it to increase prosperity or bring about peace? That which results in peace is the highest perfection (siddhi).
D.: But common people in Europe and America would not appreciate such an attitude and would desire a display of powers and instructions by lectures, etc.
Maharshi: Lectures may entertain individuals for a few hours without improving them. Silence on the other hand is permanent and benefits the whole of humanity.
D.: But silence is not understood.
Maharshi: It does not matter. By silence, eloquence is meant. Oral lectures are not so eloquent as silence. Silence is unceasing eloquence. The Primal Master, Dakshinamurti, is the ideal. He taught his rishi disciples by silence.
D.: But then there were disciples for Him. It was all right. Now it is different. They must be sought after and helped.
Maharshi: That is a sign of ignorance. The power which created you has created the world. If it can take care of you, it can similarly take care of the world also.
D.: What does Bhagavan think of the "lost soul" mentioned by Jesus Christ?
Maharshi: Think what there is to be lost. Is there anything to lose? What matters is only that which is natural. Such must be eternal and cannot be experienced. That which is born must die; that which is acquired must be lost. Were you born? You are ever existent. The Self can never be lost.
D.: Buddha advises the eight-fold path as being the best so that none might be lost.
Maharshi: Yes. Such is called Raja Yoga by the Hindus.
D.: Is yoga advised for a spiritual aspirant?
Maharshi: Yoga helps control of mind.
D.: But does it not lead to occult powers (siddhis) which are said to be dangerous?
Maharshi: But you qualified your question by the words "a spiritual aspirant".
You did not mean a seeker of powers (siddhis).
Talk 19 Talk 21
Talk 18
26th January, 1935
Talk 18.
Mr. Evans-Wentz asked: There are yogis with occult powers. What does Maharshi think of them?
Maharshi: The powers are known by hearsay or by exhibition. Thus they are in the realm of the mind only.
D.: Mr. Brunton mentions a yogi in Madras who is said to hold communion with his master in the Himalayas.
Maharshi: It is not more marvellous than telepathy - so commonly known.
Telepathy cannot exist without the hearer and television without the seer. What is the difference between hearing from far and from near? It is only the hearer who matters. Without the hearer there cannot be hearing; without the seer there cannot be vision.
D.: So you want me to consider the subject and not the object.
Maharshi: The subject and object appear only after the mind has arisen. The mind comprises them and also the occult powers.
D.: Can the manifestations of light (jothi [?]) be seen on Arunachala Hill?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: Is there any psychic effect in visiting sacred places like Mt. Kailas, Benares, etc.?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: Is there any benefit accruing by dying in Benares?
Maharshi: Yes, the meaning will be clear if the real Benares and real dying be understood.
D.: You mean that they are in the Self?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: There are six centres in the body and there are corresponding centres in the world.
Maharshi: Yes. What is in the world is in the body; and what is in the body is in the world also.
D.: Is the sacredness of Benares a matter of faith, or is it externally also real?
Maharshi: Both.
D.: Some people are attracted to one place of pilgrimage and others to another. Is it according to their temperaments?
Maharshi: Yes. Just consider how all of you born in different places and living in other lands are gathered here today? What is the Force which has attracted you here? If this is understood the other Force is also understood.
Talk 17 Talk 19
Talk 17
24th January, 1935
Talk 17.
Mr. W. Y. Evans-Wentz, an English research scholar of Oxford University, brought a letter of introduction from Mr. Brunton and arrived on a visit.
He was tired after his journey and required rest. He is quite accustomed to Indian ways of living, having visited this country several times. He has learned the Tibetan language and helped in the translation of the "Book of the Dead" and the "Life of Milarepa", the greatest of Tibetan Yogis, and a third book on the "Tibetan Secret Doctrines."
In the afternoon he began to ask a few questions. They related to Yoga. He wanted to know if it was right to kill animals such as tigers, deer, etc., and use the skin for Yoga posture (asana [?]).
Maharshi: The mind is the tiger or the deer.
D.: If everything be illusion, then one can take lives?
Maharshi: To whom is illusion? Find that out! In fact everyone is a "killer of the Self" (atmahan) every moment of his life.
D.: Which posture (asana) is the best?
Maharshi: Any asana, possibly sukha asana [?] (easy posture or the half-Buddh a position). But that is immaterial for jnana, the Path of Knowledge.
D.: Does posture indicate the temperament?
Maharshi: Yes.
D.: What are the properties and effects of the tiger's skin, wool, or deer-skin, etc.?
Maharshi: Some have found them out and related them in Yoga books. They correspond to conductors and non-conductors of magnetism, etc. But it is all immaterial for the Path of Knowledge (Jnana Marga [?]). Posture really means location and steadfastness in the Self. It is internal. The others refer to external positions.
D.: Which time is most suitable for meditation?
Maharshi: What is time?
D.: Tell me what it is!
Maharshi: Time is only an idea. There is only the Reality. Whatever you think it is, it looks like that. If you call it time, it is time. If you call it existence, it is existence, and so on. After calling it time, you divide it into days and nights, months, years, hours, minutes, etc. Time is immaterial for the Path of Knowledge. But some of these rules and discipline are good for beginners.
D.: What is Jnana Marga?
Maharshi: Concentration of the mind is in a way common to both Knowledge and Yoga. Yoga aims at union of the individual with the universal, the Reality. This Reality cannot be new. It must exist even now, and it does exist. Therefore the Path of Knowledge tries to find out how viyoga [?] (separation) came about. The separation is from the Reality only.
D.: What is illusion?
Maharshi: To whom is the illusion? Find it out. Then illusion will vanish.
Generally people want to know about illusion and do not examine to whom it is. It is foolish. Illusion is outside and unknown. But the seeker is considered to be known and is inside. Find out what is immediate, intimate, instead of trying to find out what is distant and unknown.
D.: Does Maharshi advise any physical posture for the Europeans?
Maharshi: It may be advisable. However, it must be clearly understood that meditation is not prohibited in the absence of asanas, or prescribed times, or any accessories of the kind.
D.: Does Maharshi have any particular method to impart to the Europeans in particular?
Maharshi: It is according to the mental equipment of the individual. There is indeed no hard and fast rule.
Mr. Evans-Wentz began to ask questions, mostly relating to Yoga preliminaries, for all of which Maharshi replied that they are aids to Yoga, which is itself an aid to Self-realisation, the goal of all.
D.: Is work an obstruction to Self-realisation?
Maharshi: No. For a realised being the Self alone is the Reality, and actions are only phenomenal, not affecting the Self. Even when he acts he has no sense of being an agent. His actions are only involuntary and he remains a witness to them without any attachment. There is no aim for this action. Even one who is still practising the path of Wisdom (jnana) can practise while engaged in work. It may be difficult in the earlier stages for a beginner, but after some practice it will soon be effective and the work will not be found a hindrance to meditation.
D.: What is the practice?
Maharshi: Constant search for `I', the source of the ego. Find out `Who am I??'
The pure `I' is the reality, the Absolute Existence-Consciousness- Bliss. When That is forgotten, all miseries crop up; when that is held fast, the miseries do not affect the person.
D.: Is not brahmacharya [?] (celibacy) necessary for realisation of the Self?
Maharshi: Brahmacharya [?] is `living in Brahman'. It has no connection with celibacy as commonly understood. A real brahmachari [?], that is one who lives in Brahman, finds bliss in the Brahman which is the same as the Self. Why then should you look for other sources of happiness? In fact the emergence from the Self has been the cause of all the misery.
D.: Celibacy is a sine qua non for Yoga?
Maharshi: So it is. Celibacy is certainly an aid to realisation among so many other aids.
D.: Is it then not indispensable? Can a married man realise the Self?
Maharshi: Certainly, it is a matter of fitness of mind. Married or unmarried , a man can realise the Self, because that is here and now. If it were not so, but attainable by some efforts at some other time, and if it were new and something to be acquired, it would not be worthy of pursuit. Because what is not natural cannot be permanent either. But what I say is that the Self is here and now and alone.
D.: God being immanent in all, one should not take life of any kind. Is society right in taking the life of a murderer? Can the State do so either? The Christian countries begin to think that it is wrong to do so.
Page 12
Maharshi: What is it that prompted the murderer to commit the crime? The same power awards him the punishment. Society or the State is only a tool in the hands of the power. You speak of one life taken away; But what about innumerable lives lost in wars?
D.: Quite so. Loss of lives is wrong anyway. Are wars justified?
Maharshi: For a realised man, the one who remains ever in the Self, the loss of one or several or all lives either in this world or in all the three worlds makes no difference. Even if he happens to destroy them all, no sin can touch such a pure soul. Maharshi quoted the Gita, Chapter 18, Verse 17 - "He who is free from the notion of ego, whose intellect is unattached, though he annihilates all the worlds, he slayeth not, nor is he bound by the results of his actions."
D.: Do not one's actions affect the person in after-births?
Maharshi: Are you born now? Why do you think of other births? The fact is that there is neither birth nor death. Let him who is born think of death and palliatives therefore.
D.: How long did it take Maharshi to realise the Self?
Maharshi: This question is asked because the name and form are perceived.
These are the perceptions consequent on the identification of the ego with the gross body. If the ego identifies itself with the subtle mind, as in dream, the perceptions are subtle also. But in sleep there are no perceptions. Was there not the ego still? Unless it was, there cannot be the memory of having slept. Who was it that slept? You did not say in your sleep that you slept. You say it now in your wakeful state. The ego therefore is the same in wakefulness, dream and sleep. Find out the underlying Reality behind these states. That is the Reality underlying these. In that state there is Being alone. There is no you, nor I, nor he; no present, nor past, nor future. It is beyond time and space, beyond expression. It is ever there. Just as a plantain tree produces shoots at its roots, before yielding fruits and perishing, and these shoots, being transplanted, do the same again, so also the original primeval Master of antiquity (Dakshinamurti), who cleared the doubts of his rishi disciples in silence, has left shoots which are ever multiplying. The Guru is a shoot of that Dakshinamurti. The question does not arise when the Self is realised.
D.: Does Maharshi enter the nirvikalpa samadhi [?]?
Maharshi: If the eyes are closed, it is nirvikalpa; if open, it is (though differentiated, still in absolute repose) savikalpa. The ever-present state is the natural state sahaja [?].
Talk 16 Talk 18
Talk 16
19th January, 1935
Talk 16.
Mr. Douglas Ainslie (Mr. Grant Duff), an aristocratic English gentleman, 70 years old, nephew of a former Governor of Madras, an author and poet formerly attached to the British Legation in Athens, Paris and The Hague, had come to Madras as a guest of Government House. He came to see Maharshi with a letter of introduction from Paul Brunton. Next day he returned and remained a little less than an hour in the hall. On both days practically no words were exchanged, only gaze meeting gaze. His habits are abstemious; he remains without food of any kind till 1 p.m. and then lunches; he is said to have coffee and biscuits in the evening and retires without any further food. He has been a bachelor all along, walks a few miles a day on an empty stomach, speaks little and is very graceful in his movements. His voice is low and soft and his words appear to come from the heart. He has friends among whom might be counted the late Sir John Woodroffe, Sir Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan and Prof. Thomas, Sanskrit Professor in Oxford University. He expressed a desire to hear the Vedas. On Monday a letter arrived from Riga and the questions therein happened to coincide with the questions the European visitor had asked relating to the existence of departed souls and how best to serve them.
The reply sent to Riga was read out to him. Tamil songs from Maharshi's "Truth Revealed" and the Vedas were repeated in his presence. He considered the recitations magnificent. He came the next afternoon and to the wonder of others, had an experience on the previous night which he repeated to Maharshi. It was that he had seen something like an electric light within himself in the heart centre on the right side. And he added further that he had seen the sun shining within. Maharshi smiled a little and then had a translation of "Atmavidya" (Self-Knowledge) read out to him wherein there is the cryptic saying that realisation consists in reaching the Atman (Self) which is the expanse of consciousness (chidvyoman) as distinguished from the mind, which is the expansion of chittavyoman. This explanation appealed to him.
Speaking of him later, Maharshi remarked, "Just think of an old man of 70 not choosing to live peacefully in his own house on the income he had earned! How intense has been his earnestness that he has left his native land, dared a sea-voyage of 6,000 miles, and faced the hardships of long railway journeys in a foreign land, ignorant of the language, undergoing the vicissitudes of a lonely life, submitting to the inclemency of a hot climate, in surroundings uncongenial and unaccustomed to him. He could have been happy in his own house. It is his longing for internal peace that has brought him here." Quite so! The intensity of his earnestness is revealed by his illuminating experiences here within four days of his arrival, people say.
With regard to the question concerning departed souls: so long as a man identifies himself with his gross body the thought materialised as gross manifestations must be real to him. Because his body is imagined to have originated from another physical being, the other exists as truly as his own body. Having existed here once it certainly survives death, because the offspring is still here and feels he has been born of the other. Under these circumstances the other world is true; and the departed souls are benefited by prayers offered for them. On the other hand, considered in a different way, the One Reality is the Self from whom has sprung the ego which contains within itself the seeds of predispositions acquired in previous births. The Self illumines the ego, the predispositions and also the gross senses, whereupon the predispositions appear to the senses to have materialised as the universe, and become perceptible to the ego, the reflection of the Self. The ego identifies itself with the body, and so loses sight of the Self and the result of this inadvertence is dark ignorance and the misery of the present life. The fact of the ego rising from the Self and forgetting it, is birth. So, it may be said that the birth of the individual has killed the mother. The present desire to regain one's mother is in reality the desire to regain the Self, which is the same as realising one-self, or the death of the ego; this is surrender unto the mother, so she may live eternally.
Maharshi then read out from the Tamil version of Yoga Vasishta the story of Deerga Tapasi who had two sons, Punya (merit) and Paap (sin). After the death of the parents the younger one mourned the loss and the elder brother consoled him as follows: "Why do you mourn the loss of our parents? I shall tell you where they are; they are only within ourselves and are ourselves. For the life-current has passed through innumerable incarnations, births and deaths, pleasures and pains, etc., just as the water current in a river flows over rocks, pits, sands, elevations and depressions on its way, but still the current is unaffected.
Again the pleasures and pains, births and deaths, are like undulations on the surface of seeming water in the mirage of the ego. The only reality is the Self from where the ego appears, and runs through thoughts which manifest themselves as the universe and in which the mothers and fathers, friends and relatives appear and disappear. They are nothing but manifestations of the Self so that one's parents are not outside the Self. So there is no reason to mourn. Learn it, realise it and be happy."
Talk 15 Talk 17
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